Pandemic Love #9
WHAT DO YOU DREAM OF WHEN YOU THINK OF US? PART 2
By Jeanne Donegan
How are you doing? Submit your questions to Pandemic Love here!
In the last Pandemic Love we shared the first of two interviews on non-monogamy. In part 1, I spoke with Dixon, who generously shared how they learned to embrace polyamory and the positive impact it has had on their life. In part 2, I’m excited to share a different perspective from James (they/them) and Pippin (they/them), partners who live in Seattle and have been together for the last 8 months. James is relatively new to polyamory, while Pippin has been practicing it for a long time. As their relationship grew more intimate, Pippin introduced James into their “polycule”, which includes Pippin’s girlfriend Iz (she/her), who Pippin has been dating for 2 years, and Iz’s wife Colleen (they/them).
Speaking with James and Pippin was so informative. We discussed blending new relationships with existing relationships, the various levels of interconnectivity between partners and metamours, establishing and respecting boundaries, and how much love and support a polyamorous relationship can provide.
Dating advice that I give to close friends often adheres to a simple ethos -- if it feels good, do it. But I want to expand on that, because sometimes we might close ourselves off to something before we know if it feels good to us. It may be worth taking the time to interrogate our desires and our relationship patterns before we stumble into the type of relationship we think we are supposed to want. The relationships modeled to us are often so narrow. It takes risk and trust in oneself to transcend norms and expectations, whether that is expressed through sexuality, gender, relationship style, or all of the above. It’s important to prioritize how we choose to give and receive love in ways that feel right to us, and throughout these open conversations, all three participants appeared to be unmistakably radiating that love (through the computer screen nonetheless!).
Please enjoy part 2 of this series on loving more than one person.
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Jeanne: Maybe we can start by describing what polyamory means in your life and how you arrived at it?
Pippin: I’ve been practicing polyamory since...I gotta do the math haha...most of my dating has been poly. It started when I identified as straight and was in a monogamous, heterosexual relationship. I decided I didn’t want to be heterosexual anymore, and so my ex-fiance and I opened up our relationship and that ended obviously horribly [they say with a smile]. And I just never went back.
For me, I take all of my relationships very seriously and very intensely whether it’s a friendship, or a friendship plus sex, or a romantic relationship where there’s no sex but we’re in love. There’s friendships, romantic relationships, and sexual relationships, and I’ve been in relationships with people where you have one of those elements or you have all three, or you have two out of the three, and all the different combinations. For me, it’s just nice to meet people where they are and figure out where your relationship is, and what it feels like, and not really put limiters on it. It’s nice to just organically be able to meet people and let things feel the way that they feel.
Jeanne: You mentioned sometimes maybe a relationship doesn’t have to be sexual. Would you consider someone you’re not sexually involved with to be a romantic partner?
Pippin: Sure, yeah, I’ve had relationships with people who are on the ace spectrum, so no sex but very romantically invovled. And I’ve had best friends where we fuck and then high five, haha. All of the above. It’s a rich tapestry of relationships and I really enjoy that. For me, it’s hard to find that one person could be completely and totally emotionally satisfying. I’m independent, and I like having independent relationships. That’s kind of how I think about polyamory...what about you, James?
James: I think for me I was starting to come into the realization that the majority of my relationships had been with people who had also been dating other people. It wasn’t something I intentionally looked for until earlier this year. After moving out to Seattle, I didn’t date for a while. I did the standard move to a new place and sleep around a little bit, but roughly a year ago I started thinking through past relationships and realizing, oh, yep, yep, they were definitely married, they were in a long term relationship, and they were actively dating someone else and cheating on them with me. And then I was like, Ohhhhhh. Huh...this tracks. Let’s do this in a more ethical way.
Pip and I met via OkCupid, and the whole polycule thing that we have going on between me, Pip, Iz, and Colleen has just been really nice. Like we have dinner every week on Wednesdays and we do little getaway weekend things. Iz has helped me move both of the times I’ve moved now in the past two months...I didn’t even ask! It has just been super nice having that...I want to say family but...it basically is a family, but there also is a lot of sex involved haha. [Pip laughs]
Jeanne: Do you mind if I ask, is the sex just between the two of you or is it between all of you?
[An eruption of jovial laughter between Pippin and James.]
Pippin: No, no...James and I have been dating about 6 months, Iz and I have been together for about 2 years, and then Iz and Colleen have been together for 7 years or something like that, so it’s kind of like a U shape.
Jeanne: Ahhh, okay, so not a full circle?
Pippin: Haha, not a full circle. Sometimes it works out that way, but we’re pretty good about boundaries and talking about where our boundaries are, you know, as is best with “kitchen table poly” of being like, “so we can cuddle, but everybody’s gotta keep their pants on.”
Jeanne: I like the term “kitchen table poly” -- is that just a term you’re using to talk about laying out boundaries outside of a sexual context?
Pippin: Yeahhhh, sort of, let me be clear it’s not something we created, it’s known in the community, but it’s basically the type of poly where you all could sit together at a kitchen table and have a conversation and it wouldn’t be awkward, vs. the type of poly where you see other people but we’re not friends. And I like having close relationships with my metamours, metamour is the term for your partner’s partner. Like metadata, metamour, same concept.
Jeanne: I imagine there’s some people that don’t want to have that kind of contact, like a don’t ask/don’t tell scenario or one where you’re aware of each other, but you don’t want to have the intimacy overlap at all. So that’s not something you’re interested in?
Pippin: I kind of let the person that I’m dating come to terms with whatever relationship they want with me and my partners. For a long time, I was deliberately already dating people who were in primary relationships, because I just didn’t want to do relationship escalation for various reasons. And so, for me, as a secondary partner, I don’t enjoy when the primary is like, “Well, you can’t sleep in my bed, and you can fuck but there’s no kissing.” For me, that doesn’t feel good, but when it comes to like...do you want to be friends? That’s something that I let other people decide, and I just got lucky that James wanted to be a part of it.
James: I remember early on too, when we are all quarantining harder than we are now. Pip hadn’t seen Iz in a bit, and I had just known of this other person but it wasn’t someone that I had actively gone out to meet until a month or so into dating. We had brunch at some point and I was like, oh dang, I do actually enjoy hanging around this person. I dropped Pip off for Iz’s birthday, and we just waved at each other from afar and I just remember feeling like, I wanna be there, but I’m just gonna drop you off, okay--like I would enjoy being a part of that part of your life too, it seems like we would all get along just fine.
Jeanne: So James, when you had that first feeling of wanting to be more a part of things, did that come with any feelings of jealousy or insecurity for you at all?
James: I wouldn’t say so...I’m not an overly jealous person, which I think lends itself well to being poly. I think it was more so a feeling of just like wanting to be a part of what seemed like good memories being made. All of this just seems good and positive, and Iz and Colleen seemed like people I wanted to be friends with anyway. So it all worked out really well. Iz and I are shockingly similar, well I guess not too shockingly...
[James turns to Pippin and says “you are dating both of us.” They laugh.]
Pippin: I have a type, it’s fine. Haha
James: The group dynamic really shakes out pretty evenly too, it’s just a good group.
Pippin: Yeah, it has been good, it doesn't always work out this way.
Jeanne: So Pippin, you were talking about primary partners a bit before, do you have a “primary” partner in this situation?
Pippin: As far as primary/secondary...I hate those terms. There’s a term called “relationship anarchy” which is basically like, just because a relationship is romantic, doesn’t mean that relationship is more important than say your friendships. I have a best friend whom I’m very close with and she’s very, very important to me. And so, I don’t like the terms primary/secondary, but there’s another term “nesting partner” -- someone that you live with and make a home with. So I would say that in this situation, Colleen and Iz are nesting and then James and I are nesting sort of.
Jeanne: Yeah, for me the hierarchy of the words primary/secondary has always kind of hurt my heart a little bit when I think about it.
Pippin: Yeah, me too. Rubs me the wrong way, but then also the inverse of the ultra hierarchical is pretending that all your relationships are exactly the same. Not acknowledging that there are still power dynamics, you know what I mean? Iz and Colleen are married and pair-bonded for life. So not acknowledging that that is a real power dynamic wouldn’t work, because at the end of the day, if Colleen moves across the country, Iz is gonna go with them. But if I move across the country, Iz is gonna stay here. So you have to come to terms with that, even if you don’t call yourself a “secondary” partner.
It does make it easier, in my experience, if people are already married and that is an established relationship, it’s not like you’re both single and looking for primary people, right? There’s like a little more scarcity and jealousy that comes up sometimes is what I’ve noticed in the past. But I don’t know…[Pip turns to James] we’ll see how it goes if you ever decide to start dating other people.
James: True, which currently I don’t. I have felt very fulfilled and content, not content as in settled, but just content as in I don’t currently want any more right now. And also like...it’s fucking Covid, I would not necessarily feel safe having another person in our bubble. I already have to go to work every single day.
Pippin: And Colleen does research studies for Covid...REALLY important work, but super high risk.
Jeanne: So aside from dating just being difficult right now for everyone in general, James you don’t have a need or desire for more at the moment?
James: Yeah, and I think part of it comes down to just that I’m having all of my desires met and then some, and also I don’t have the world’s highest sex drive, because I haven’t been on T [testosterone] for...I don’t even know how long by now. So that part feels good, and I still get a bunch of cuddles, I still get to text Pip very frequently, and we still hang out A LOT.
Pippin: Yeah the polycule hangs out a lot, we do a lot of fun group dates. We all went to the zoo, we had like a 90s sleepover where we made homemade Taco Bell, and watched gay movies.
Jeanne: That is literally so fucking cute.
Pippin: Haha it’s so cute. Yeah. We did a dim sum night and ordered way too much food. We’re going to a Clydesdale horse ranch in a couple weeks, it’s really sweet. And James and I are doing a bunch of cute things too, I have a birthday trip planned. But I am on testosterone, I have a very high sex drive. So it’s nice to not have to put all the pressure on one person.
Jeanne: I think I understand from context, but can you define what the term “polycule” means? That’s a newer term to me.
Pippin: So polycule is like the network of your partners and your partner’s partners. Whatever group that is, if it’s romantic or sexual. Whatever relationship you want, but it’s just the network of people in your fluid circle basically.
Jeanne: Would you use the term polycule even if all partners weren’t hanging out or didn’t know each other? Or is it a more specific term for a group of people who all have some kind of intimate contact or relationship with one another?
Pippin: I think it’s more the latter, you have to all agree upon it. Like you have to opt in to the polycule, not opt out.
James: One of the people (in the polycule) had someone they were dating for a hot second, and I wouldn’t necessarily have put the person they were dating as a part of the “polycule.”
Jeanne: That’s helpful to know, so there’s not necessarily just you four in this U shape, and that’s it -- everyone can/does still date outside of the polycule, you know in non-pandemic times.
Pippin: Yeah, and it’s helpful in the pandemic times because we are all sharing fluids which is one of the reasons we feel comfortable hanging out as a group, but if one of us wants to go off and have sex with an “outsider” we’re like, “Hey heads up, we both got covid tested and we’re going to a hotel, here’s how we’re going to keep everyone safe and take care of ourselves.”
Jeanne: Cool...that’s so ethical.
Pippin: haha we try.
Jeanne: I’m curious, did either of you have any example of poly or open relationships when you were growing up at all?
[they both shake their heads no, emphatically]
James: My parents were married for 36 years growing up, very middle America, white, upper middle class family. Mom, Dad, house, cat, dog, three kids. All the relationships were these super long-term, very monogamous relationships between people in relatively equal standing. I’ve always been, not the odd one out, but just like vastly different than my siblings. I’ve always kind of had to figure things out for myself in that regard when it comes to people I want to date, sexuality, gender, all of the above. My whole upbringing was just super straight, super cis, super binary, and very monogamous. So it was just like cool...none of those things worked.
Pippin: Yeah, I’m trying to remember if I knew anyone who was implicitly poly, who was like poly coded and I just didn’t know as a kid, but no. Pretty cishet middle America upbringing. And I will say that my first couple poly relationships were not ethical, or functional. This polycule definitely runs on a lot of therapy.
When I first started having poly relationships, I was with like...some fuckin’ dude that I thought I was gonna marry because that was the only relationship that had ever been modelled to me, right? Meet your boyfriend in high school, date them through college, get married at the end. So I was riding that trajectory, and then coming out as trans, coming out as queer, coming out as poly all sort of happened at once.
I will say too, I hate when people think that polyamory is like the “evolved” choice, you know what I mean? I really dislike when you get in some poly circles and they’re like, “Well we’re obviously making the smart decision here, monogamy is for chumps.” I don’t think that that’s true at all, it’s all a choice, and it’s just really great these days to have the ability to date however and whoever you want.
James: It reminds me a lot of how in Chicago, it felt pretty prevalent, where people would be trying to out-queer each other, out-activitist each other, beat down the other person because they’re going to more protests, they are doing more things, they are dating more people, they’re having more sex, and I was like, “That’s great for you, but just do what makes you happy? And have some fun and be nice about it?”
Jeanne: For people who are new to non-monogamy and worry about combating all these potential feelings of insecurity and jealousy, can you talk a little more about how you navigate that?
James: I think the biggest thing that has helped me with all this, is just the openness of all the communication between me and Pip, between me and Iz, between me and Colleen, between the four of us, between me, Iz, and Colleen, between me, Iz, and Pip -- the amount of group texts that go on haha...the communication helps so much. It’s through that openness that we’ve all been able to build such trust and also still have healthy boundaries that respect all of the different relationships in it too. Like when Pip and Iz have their date nights, Friday nights, I try not to interrupt with text messages. I try to respect the time that they do have together because I realize that the time I have with Pip is much more open and available, whereas the time Pip has with Iz is a more specific chunk of time. They had a staycation last weekend, so we didn’t get our “normal” date night, we used to always do Saturday nights, but now that’s all just blended, we just spend a lot of time together.
The openness to know that you can ask questions, you can talk about any uncomfortable topic. You can ask what you need to ask, but you can also trust that we’re all here to be good to each other. We all love each other.
Pippin: Yeah, speaking of James saying we used to have our date nights on Saturday nights -- the quarantine has been like a shit show, it’s a disaster, we’re all struggling through it, but in a way that it hasn’t been all bad -- before quarantine, I was very rigid about my relationships. It would be like on Tuesdays and Thursdays I was alone, and on Mondays and Fridays I had date nights and on Wednesdays and Saturdays I saw friends, like I had a schedule that I stuck to. And doing this has really been good in helping me erode some of those completely unnecessary boundaries and just kind of helping me be a little more flexible and open.
Jeanne: Do you feel good about that? Do you feel like once things are “back to normal” you would return to that rigidness or is this opening up a new way of being for you?
Pippin: Probably a bit of both, as my therapist would say, “yes, and…” I can’t ever imagine going back to that old system, mostly because I don’t feel as drawn to seeing as many people as I used to. Pre-quarantine I was out six nights a week, now if I’m out two nights a week I’m exhausted. Out meaning, if I have two social interactions in a week I’m like *sigh*. I don’t know that I’ll ever go back to the old ways. But also, I don’t know...the way things have happened with James, I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it. I’ll figure out when I can see people again, and right now this feels like enough.
James: There’s definitely things that I want to do that we haven’t been able to do as two people together like, we haven't been able to go to a bar, it’s just still so odd each time I go anywhere and see you [Pip] interact with friends or just other people. I’m just like oh shit, another side of Pip I haven’t seen because we’ve been in quarantine this whole entire time.
Jeanne: It’s cool to see your partner in their element. Even just thinking about your partner out at a bar interacting with friends or flirting with other people, it can be really exciting to see them vibing in their space.
Pippin: Yeah, I really love that. One day I’ll bring you to all my favorite haunts [they say to James].
James: Or just like going to a museum or a movie theater, indoor things and live shows
Pippin: Yeah, I mean I have so many hobbies, as single people do haha, you see a lot of people, you have a lot of hobbies. Also, interesting to have a relationship pre-Covid that I had been in for a year and a half and still feel like I’m pretty single, right? Because I didn’t have that nesting component of the relationship. As much as Iz and I love each other and care for each other and give each other a lot of support, she didn't necessarily have a huge input in how I choose to live my life. Like, the jobs that I took, or the places that I moved to, or the people that I decided to start seeing, at least pre-quarantine I didn’t really have anybody that I was running those things by, I was just sort of making them for myself so I considered myself pretty single in that regard, even though I was dating 3 or 4 people at the time. It’s an interesting mindset...they were all pretty casual relationships despite being emotionally involved.
Jeanne: Yeah, You know, I’ve had long periods of being single and dating multiple people at a time here and there, and even if I was seeing someone for like a month or two, I would have still considered myself single too. But that’s interesting that even if you were in a longer partnership, you could still feel in that mindset because of the freedom that it allows in your life.
Pippin: So here’s my question for you, when you were out and dating all these people before you were your current partnership, did you consider yourself poly or were you just like “playing the field”?
Jeanne: That is such a good question. I remember going on several dates with people who identified as poly, but didn’t have a partner, which left me wondering -- is that just...dating? I never considered myself to be poly, even though I may have been acting in that regard at times. And while all these dates were fun, well...not all of them were fun haha, I was always ultimately looking for one single partner.
Pippin: We give labels to things, not people. So we opt in. If somebody wants to call themselves poly that’s great and if someone doesn’t that’s fine as long as everyone is ethical. A term that I’ve used when I was in that situation where I was dating but didn’t have a guiding partnership or nesting partnership was “solo poly” where I’m my own primary partner and I have people that I date, but it’s just me for the most part.
It’s like, you define the label and you let people come to it. You don’t tell somebody “you only sleep with women, therefore you’re a lesbian.”
James: I think in that respect, that’s why I leaned into “queer” for so long, there was all that openness to it, it made me feel more open to date anyone of any gender type of thing. That’s also kind of what eventually helped me realize more thoughts about gender. When I was at Columbia [Chicago] I was much more dudely looking you could say. I was on full doses of testosterone, I was racing motocross a lot so I just had muscles, and in February I had a couple weeks where I immersed myself in a lot of queer media again and basically took a two week break from straight people, haha, and I was just like, “Oh fuck, I don’t think I actually want to be viewed as a man anymore.” And started coming more to terms with being non-binary and wanting to use they/them pronouns and just kind of leaned into that grey area of life even more. I’ve been enjoying, not necessarily living life without rules, living a life that…
Pippin: ...is in the grey space.
James: Yeah, in the grey space, is more open to any of the possibilities of anything that might come up. Openness in gender, openness in sexulaity, openness in relationships. It’s been more freeing. It’s a lot less like, cool you’re gonna live like this. You’re queer so you will only date this type of person. You’re in X type of relationship style so that’s the only type of relationship you will ever have. It’s just been very nice to not have those strict boundaries around things.
Jeanne: Yeah, the grey space is the good space.
Pippin: it’s where the good things happen.
James: You could make a photo joke about it being 18% grey. [James and I share a laugh as two photography geeks.]
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This Weeks Resources:
Compersion: A polyamory hack to improve all your relationships by Dr. Liz Powell - Spectrum Journal
Episode 11: Our Polyamorous Relationship - Ev’Yan Whitney, The Sexually Liberated Woman Podcast